Name: The Collaborative Sales Playbook: How to Sell Smarter, Together
Uploaded: 2025-09-24T15:57:12.407Z
Duration: 41 min 8 s
Description: The Collaborative Sales Playbook: How to Sell Smarter, Together

Transcript for "The Collaborative Sales Playbook: How to Sell Smarter, Together": Hi, everyone, and thank you for joining us today. I'm really excited to kick things off with the collaborative sales playbook. Now as a marketer, I've always been curious about what successful selling really looks like because the better we understand it, the better we can partner with our friends on the revenue team. What I love about today's topic is it shifts from the traditional pitch to something much more collaborative, a real dialogue with customers, cocreating solutions, and making them feel like true partners. We'll dig into what this looks like in practice, how to take first steps, how teams like marketing, product, and sales can work together to make it happen in the end. I know that I'll be taking notes on behalf of the marketers to figure out how we can better support this collaboration, and I'm really excited to hear what our speakers have to share. So let's jump in. Hi, Ashley. Hi, Nabil. So I'm really proud of you today. Can you give me both a quick introduction? Sure. Love to. I'm Ashley Welch. I'm the cofounder and CEO of Somersault Innovation, and we do just what you're talking about, which is help sellers and go to market teams cocreate with their customers to grow pipe pipeline and revenue. And, so pleased. This is a passionate topic of mine. So so pleased to be here with Nabil and you and show people how to use some tips and tricks. Yes. You literally wrote the book on this. So Yeah. Excited. You're right. Nabil, how about you? Awesome. Well, honored, to be here. I'm Nabil. I'm a sales performance and innovation coach. I've got my own consultancy called Yes And Labs, but I also do work, with Summersalt Innovation. I actually met Ashley when I was, Muralista back in the day doing sales, with Mural, and, really excited to continue to be partnering with her and and with you all, to share all of the good knowledge that we, accumulated and, I think is so powerful for sales. Alrighty. So let's get into it. I wanted to start with the basics. What is the biggest difference between traditional selling and collaborative cocreation focused selling? Yeah. I'll start. And, I think, you know, the biggest difference for me as I'm a, both a business owner but also a seller every day myself is first and foremost sort of the mindset of, like, how do I get my customer's fingerprints on what we're doing? Whether it's just a conversation, like, how do I make sure that it's a a lot of back and forth to all the way at the end of, like, the solution I'm constructing for them. Like, how do I get their perspective really embedded so they can see, their ideas in the solution itself. So that's one. It's just a mindset. And two, I love this distinction between dialogue and conversation, like, if you look at the underpinnings of the words, conversation is kinda like, I think of, like, ping pong. It's like going back, you know, I think actually, most of the time people are just in conversation. Dialogue is, like, how are what we're talking about together actually something bigger and different than either one of us had initially conceptualized. So we're, like, cocreating something. So, again, it's like this notion of how do I get in dialogue with my customer so that together we're creating something bigger than each one of us on our own. What about you and Miguel? What do you think about? Yeah. I love the word cocreation. I would double click on that. And, you know, I think, ultimately, as a salesperson, you want your job to be fun, and I think, connecting well with the sort of people that you are selling to, and working with, in a way they're partners of yours. And so it's really taking a mindset mindset shift from, I'm trying to, you know, kinda force something upon you to, hey. There's this interesting problem out there in this world that we're both curious about. What can I bring, you know, to the table? What can you bring to the table? And how can we cocreate a future that benefits both of us? And if it's not us directly, maybe it's a third person that, ultimately shows up later in our relationship, in our conversation. But it's injecting, I think, a sense of empathy, connectedness, play, into into that kind of a relationship. Yeah. Another thing I wanna say is, again, this is a a sales focused conversation. I almost all the time, when you really get your customer's fingerprints on what you're doing and you're cocreating with them, the sale is actually bigger. It's bigger. It's longer. It's faster. So, that's the, I think, super tangible and, important, outcome to why you'd wanna do this as well. Awesome. So for that outcome, we need to get started. If a sales rep wanted to start practicing cocreation tomorrow, what's the very first behavior or mindset shift you'd recommend they try? Yeah. I think, for me, something as simple as essentially, visual listening, if if that's a term. Maybe we can make it a term. But, as we're having a conversation with somebody, just literally jotting down the interesting things that we're hearing. And, you know, oftentimes, you know, myself included, I'm trying to make sense of my thoughts, when I'm asked a question, kind of thinking live. And so it's really useful for me to have a partner who can help me think through that and get a sense if there's a there there, what that might mean for, you know, the goals of the conversation that we're having. So something as simple as, you know, firing up a a Miro whiteboard and being able to take some notes, hit tab for the next note. And then if you're if we have time doing a little bit of, like, light kinda clustering, I think is is super powerful and a relatively, easy thing to pick up. Yeah. And, you know, I think virtual whiteboards, what Mural is in the business of doing, is a game changer for cocreation and collaboration in the sales space. Now you're you're not new to the game. This isn't new, but I think to people in the sales community, it still is quite new. So it's very powerful in terms of when you work with your customer and you're able to use a collaboration or visual whiteboard like this, which we're about to show you. It's it just differentiates you as a seller, and it puts you in this motion of cocreation because your customer can start to see literally their ideas and words on a physical sort of a virtual landscape. So I wanna show you what we're doing with the whiteboard in a way that's really easy and a place to get started. So as we said, one of the first things to do is just capture what you're learning from the person you're talking to. So let's say we are in a discovery phase with a customer, and the role play we're gonna play is, Somersault Innovation is potentially working with a car dealership, and this car dealership is looking to increase their sales. So that's why they'd come to Somersault Innovation. But as Somersault Innovation, I wanna make sure I really understand what's going on with sales at the dealership. So some of the things that I'm gonna do is I'm gonna talk to some of the sellers at dealership, but I also wanna talk to end users. And so Aliyah here, we're gonna say, is in the market for a new car, And so we wanna interview her. And so in this situation, Nabil's gonna take some notes on the whiteboard and show you how easy it is. I'm gonna interview Aaliyah, and this is all in the context of once I would get the information from Aaliyah, it's information that I can then show my prospect later on to show how I really did I have been listening to what their end users care about. So let's just jump in the mural, and then we'll interview you, Aliyah. Sounds great. Okay. So you see the whiteboard here. Nabil's already put a few things on here, to set us up. And I think it's really powerful even if you're the you, Nabil, are taking the notes and Aliyah doesn't have access to the mural, that she just sees that you're capturing what you, hear. Just like you said, it's visual listening. So, Aliyah, I understand you're in the market for a car, and I wanna know everything that you care about. I think you're thinking about buying a car and that we're, with with Imperial Cars. Imperial, which is in Mendenh, Massachusetts, is a car dealership, and I know you've been talking to them. So I'd like to hear first of all, like, why are you buying a car right now? Yeah. I have a car currently, but it is on its last leg. It's over 10 years old and has way too many miles on it, and I have a toddler who's getting more and more rides in it, and I want something reliable for her. Okay. So reliability matters to you. Sounds like you, are on the last legs of your current car, and you probably wanna get something new before this one dies. Yes. Especially with winter coming up. Okay. I can already tell you that that's a great idea since my car just died, and I had to scramble to get one. Tell us more about the features that you're looking for in a car. Yeah. So as a mom in Massachusetts, it's important to me that it is an all weather vehicle. So I'm looking for something a little bit bigger, I would say. I tend to lean more towards SUVs because they have the space and especially the cargo room, which is really important. We do a lot of road trips as a family, so being able to fit all of our stuff and have enough space to breathe in the car is really important. I would say that I don't really care too much about all of the bells and whistles, that a lot of the, like, modern luxury cars have. I think it's a little bit more important to have the reliability, the space, and maybe not an outrageous color. Oh, what's what's outrageous? There's a a car in our neighborhood today that is lime green, and every time I see it, it just, like, hurts my soul a little bit. So I like a a dark blue or black. Okay. So color matters. What about interior color? Interior color doesn't matter as much. Ideally, I would like to do a leather interior because I find it's a little bit easier to maintain, with cleanup. Yes. Absolutely. Due to the child or pet. Yeah. Sticking us everywhere. Yes. I'm wondering, have you had a a favorite car in the past? And if so, what what did you love about it? Yeah. I currently am driving a Jeep Grand Cherokee, which I really enjoy. It is the right space, the right size, not super overwhelming in the city, which is nice for parking. It handles really easily, which I appreciate as well. I've driven, some larger SUVs that kinda feel like a truck. So I appreciate it that, it has the agility built into it. Okay. Great. So I think we can call a time out here even though I'd like to hear more about all the things you're thinking about in a car. For the sake of demo purposing purposes, maybe, Nabil, you can just share a little bit around what you've been doing as you've heard Aaliyah and I talk. For sure. You know, I've been thinking about things that just jump out at me as being interesting and relevant to better understanding Aaliyah's needs. And so one is, I mean, first, setting up some some grounding and some context about her current car and what she likes and what he doesn't like about it. And then moving more into your questions around features. As I'm writing sticky notes down, just trying to find if there's some sort of way to bucket them, group them. So I noticed that, like, we transitioned into a features conversation, and there was a conversation around kind of, like, the features of the vehicle itself to things like the, you know, interior, like, exterior colors, interior, and maybe, yeah, kind of some of the aesthetic of the vehicle. So if I had a little bit more time or if you, you know, continue to speak, I might start labeling these as well, just to give myself a reminder of what these categories mean. Okay. Awesome. And I'm curious, Aaliyah, what's the experience for you being interviewed seeing this happening? Yeah. I mean, it was really lovely to see all of the notes as they go. I find that as especially a a marketer and someone who talks a lot for work, I am very easy to go off and tell my stories and not always find the full loop to bring them back to where they need to be. So being able to see what comes top of mind and what's already been kind of recorded or pinned versus what, potentially is still kind of resonating in my mind that I wanna bring up and make sure that's been recorded is really helpful. Yeah. So it's helping to synthesize your own thinking as you're seeing this. For sure. I wanna highlight that Nabil is not an amateur here. You're you're skilled. So, you made it look so easy. And, you for those of you who have not tried this before, you may not be quite as adept right off the bat as Nabil is, but it's still super easy. Like, for every stick, you just put a thought, and then you can categorize it later versus in the moment if if that feels too hard. But definitely just try it. I also wanna show what and, Nabil, if you scroll up a little bit, you can see that there's a discovery board here. So just give people a sense of, like, I start to fill the notes section out just like Nabil was doing. And then after the fact, I sort of synthesize it and make it look good in a way that I wanna present to the customer. So if you go to the right now, you'll see there's a an example of something that's completely filled out. So this could be an example of what you would show a customer. You might show some of it or all of it. But if you look on the bottom left with the people's pictures, that would be an example where I'd have Aaliyah's face, and then I'd start talking about the themes that I heard from her and other people I've interviewed. It's a very powerful way to show your customer what you've learned about them, both in terms of the themes, like content, but also images of the people. So just wanna give them a chance to help pull. I wanna take a quick step back and, talk about the discovery conversation. So when you're, preparing to kick off, how do you structure discovery conversations so they're naturally leading into cocreation solutions rather than just sounding like a product pitch? It's a good question. So first of all, I wanna say, if it's a first conversation I'm having, I don't use a mural board. I just have this so that I can really build relationship and see people in the largest form possible in a virtual setting. So the second conversation, I try to suggest, like, I I wanna show you something or I wanna capture your, you know, your input. I'm gonna capture it live. But I sort of, mentioned that I wanna hear their input so that I can visually show how their input is now being put on whatever I've already showed so that it's like it's like the physical act of taking their input is visualized. So that's one thought. Maybe, what do you think? You know, I almost think of, like, a a sales meeting as a little workshop. My own background is in workshop design and facilitation. Maybe that's why that kind of that mental model is useful for me. But I just think about, you know, we've got twenty minutes, maybe thirty minutes together, an initial call, maybe an hour long, and a follow-up. How do I design that time where I'm able to get to sort of the key milestones that I that I want to? So in sales, it was often, doing some sort of, you know, a, early introductions, to myself, maybe to team members who are important as part of the sales process, like in solutions engineering and so forth. But, also, you know, what are our qualification criteria? So whether it's MEDDIC or SPICE, kind of creating buckets in that mural to at least have as placeholders. If there's, you know, a case study or, some sort of story that's relevant to the use case that's really interesting for this client, having that prepared, as part of the mural board, and then maybe having a, you know, parking lot for things that come up that we didn't expect. So variations of that as we might go further into a process that might turn into things like a mutual action plan. But just thinking about how do I design this conversation in ways that get us to sort of, the useful outcomes that we're trying to in that limited time. Amazing. You kind of teased a little bit on this, but are there certain techniques you use to position a customer as a partner in problem solving rather than as someone you're just selling to? Yes. For me, number one, I'll always sort of say I wanna send you a draft. Let's say we work for far enough in the deal cycle that we're at a place where we're starting to think about what the solution is. I'll always say, like, I wanna just send you a draft, and then I would love your feedback on it. And whether I send it in Word, I send it in a way that they can edit. If I send a, you know, a link, to a whether it's Google or, Microsoft document that they can edit. And then even better, if I can put it on a mural and then I invite them in and say, like, just add your own stickies if you feel like it or just tell me and then I'll add them for you so that they know that this is a place for them to add their input. I also think we can show you, just like another example. It's similar to what we just did, but, another example of how we might start cocreating the solution with you in a different role play. Should we try that? For sure. Okay. Alright. Let me fire up this mural then. Okay. So here's the context of this one. So this time, Aliyah, we're gonna talk to you as an events manager, and you're you've got an event coming up, and you're thinking about I'm talking to you again from a somersault point of view. You're thinking about how you might wanna structure that event, and I'm thinking about what role somersault might be able to play. So this is in the stage of helping you think through the solution. So I just wanna say what you're gonna see with Neil doing is very similar, but he might do a little more creating themes because our interest is to help Aaliyah really think through the solution that she's, trying to create. So versus, like, us telling her the solution, we wanna get it first from her. So, Aaliyah, tell us a little bit about, your role and, like, what's the event that's coming up that we're talking about? Love it. So my role is the senior director of brand experiences here at Mural. And what I do is basically take our narrative as a company and build it into ways that we can let our users, our customers, prospects, really experience us as a brand. So trying to go beyond the traditional, ways of of sending and sharing content into ways that we can really kind of bring it to life with our audience. Okay. And what kind of event do you have come out? We have an executive dinner coming up. Okay. Tell us about exec what is what tell tell us about this particular executive dinner and and a little bit around your aspirations for it. Yeah. So this dinner is targeted towards, our user group who fall into the r and d and product side of the org. They are typically people who use a lot of visual representations for workflows and for opportunities to align within their teams in the broader business. So, the point of the dinner is to be able to share some learnings on what everyone's doing and where they're seeing success in their particular, companies and roles and create a forum where we can share learnings from our side and kind of things we're seeing on the broader front in the market, to pass on best practices. K. And, tell me a little bit about what you're still trying to figure out versus you already nailed it. Yeah. I think we have a fairly good sense of who is going to be on the guest list. We are trying to figure out if the message that we're thinking about is going to be impactful for the audience or if we need to fine tune it in a way that's going to, really get them excited about coming in and have a real benefit for them. So you're working on the content and sort of what's the discussion about such that it becomes really exciting to them to say yes to and wanna engage. Okay. So there's a content piece. Anything else that's sort of not yet nailed down? I would say that beyond the reason for them to come, what we want to have them do after the event is still being worked on. I think we like to think of our events in two folds. We, of course, love opportunities to just connect and align with customers. I think having an opportunity to see people face to face is such a big, benefit now in our post COVID world where we were kind of faced, with screens all day long. So having that in person opportunity is, of course, a really great benefit. But beyond having the chance to connect in person and to kind of learn, by sharing examples and narratives, what is the more, outcome driven action that we want them to take away from the event so that they provide value beyond just coming to a fun dinner. Mhmm. Awesome. So it's the outcome piece of it you're still thinking through as well as sort of what's the, what's the process you're gonna what's the message or what's the topic and the process to get them excited? Okay. So there are two pieces you're still working on. Anything else that we Those are probably the big ones. Okay. And have you come up with any ideas already around messaging or topics? We have a couple of ideas we're playing with. Of course, AI is a big topic of discussion across the board for everyone, so that is top of mind for us as well. More and more, we're seeing collaboration and collaboration across not just, internal teams, but across the broader, like, go to market and, product team is is really important and finding ways to kind of unlock that for our customers, especially through visual representation is a big thing that we really love. And then I would say beyond that, just the alignment into how you can take actions and really drive impactful business outcomes with some of these suggestions. Great. Sounds like a great party. Great conversation. No good I have a question. Yeah. Like, what does success look like? You hold this event, reflecting back on it a couple of weeks later or a couple of months later, how do you know that you succeeded? Yeah. So we have a couple of different methods we use to, track the success of the events we do. We have, surveys that we'll send afterwards to get the quick feedback of was it useful, what are your key takeaways, did it provide value for you overall. We also have certain actions we like to tease into it. So, for example, if we do lean into that AI topic, there's a lot of new and interesting features in Mural that are AI based. So being able to help share how to implement those in their workflows is, an action that we can see as successful to, like, not only say that we're sharing the theory, but showing how it can be used in practice and seeing that actually being used in practice. Okay. Alright. Great. So user surveys, seeing how Mural features are being used. Is there a way for you to track that, like, based off of, like, back end data, or usage? Yeah. I would say it's probably less tracking back end data and more, conversations that our account teams are having with the different customers. I think one of the things that we really try to do is make sure that we're consistently touching base with, accounts that are looking to evolve some of these new features and functionalities to make sure that they're finding success and use in what we're doing. Okay. Great. So it sounds like there's an interface also with potentially the sales team and making sure that their accounts are getting value out of these organizations and maybe it's impacting the conversations that they're having. Is that right? Or am I mischaracterizing that? No. No. No. That's perfect. And then I would see even getting it's maybe less of a success metric, but a a fun takeaway is if we can get interesting ideas and focuses that help us, drive forward our product road map. Interesting. Okay. Cool. So, again, I think we should call time here and just sort of debrief what we're doing, for the listeners. So what I would do is if this was real, I would take what I hear from Aaliyah right now, and I would take it into consideration as I started to think through, okay, what would be what we could offer that then either support some of these or we recommend, like, this is some not something we touch. You can you should be talking to somebody else for this. And then come back with a visual that is very similar to this. So something similar to what you've already seen, Aaliyah, but little additive in terms of what our perspective on it so that I can share. Look. I heard this. These things are important to you. Like, it's gotta be focused on AI, and, you know, have this this idea of the collaboration among the teams. What is that looking like? And then what you're aiming for is this, and here's how we would meet that. Again, this is all in the vein of, like, cocreating the solution with you, but also in a way that visually you can see how we cocreated it with you. Yeah. And I think you touched on a really interesting theme there too that beyond having this visual asset that you can share and align with me, there's also the opportunity to share and align to a broader team or organization. So, I would say, like, one of the main fundamental pieces of cocreation is that ability to really visually share and align what you're doing with more than one group. Are there some practical tips for orchestrating some of this cross functional collaboration without slowing down a deal cycle or a sales activity? Yeah. Well, I think you bring up a really important point. I think what actually, thing the deal slows down when you haven't include the other stakeholders, and all of a sudden, you get a big, like, hand, like, well, this person was never involved and they care about something else, so we're done. So I the way I would use this in the vein of trying to involve other stakeholders, I just did this the other day, is, like, I I do just this, build the solution with the person that's sort of my internal champion, and then I say, let's have another meeting invite another two people or whoever the, let's say, the leader is and show them this. Let's show them this together and gain their input on it. And we then indicate their input up on the mural itself and then upgrade based on what we heard so that we are building so the consensus as we go with the other people, and they can again visually see now what both let's say, in this case, you and me have created or the three of us have created, and now we have a fourth person coming in. And now that we can have their input as well. Yeah. And I think that becomes so important as, you know, if you're my enterprise deals would often take, you know, on average, six to nine months. Sometimes it would take a couple of years to close a deal. And, you know, enterprise deals are so complex. There's so many moving parts, so many teams, that get brought on throughout that deal cycle that don't have the context that you you've gained over the course of that time period. So I think having this central source of truth, is really useful and, having a document that also can be referenced to, like, asynchronously and and worked on asynchronously, especially if I'm working on this with somebody else in the sales team or marketing or customer success, let's say, it's it's a renewal with, you know, hopefully, an uplift. It allows us to be able to kinda minimize the emails in Slack and continue to, yeah, move move move the ball forward. Amazing. I can see that doing this is really helping to unlock some of those deeper thoughts and themes and positioning that's going to give us a much better kind of, like, three sixty view of what a potential solution could look like going forward. But I feel like there are sometimes when customers just want a straightforward answer or solution. How do you balance the cocreation side of it with the need to provide very quick clarity and direction for situations like that? Maybe, you start. For sure. You know, one of my mentors, once told me, you know, it's easier to edit than to create, and, it can be useful, I mean, both in sales, but also, I think, in dealing with really, a lot of folks who are maybe time compressed and, just want to get to that quick answer is coming up with that first draft ourselves. So not necessarily walking them through that process. Maybe even they're just feeling, like, emotionally overwhelmed and they're just not not ready to even have their thoughts captured because they're overwhelmed by their own thoughts. I was like, cool. Like, let me just do this all in the background on my own, make sense of it. And sort of the the gift that I offer you is like a very simple synthesized version of this, and a couple of quick options, right, to choose from. I think also folks like options, and that gives them a sense of being able to create some direction and get that fingerprint, as Ashley said, without having to be brought, through that process. So I would say, as a salesperson, generally, you're very good at feeling out who you're speaking with and where they're at, and I would say trust your instincts, on that. Yeah. Plus one to that for sure. I think the same question I get, Ely, is someone will say, like, well, what if they just keep asking me for a demo? Do I demo it or do I slow them down and do all these discovery questions? And I my answer would be, like, yeah. Give them the demo, but tell them, I want your feedback as I go. So that you're still collecting their input, but you're satisfying their need. Like, I just wanna see it. I wanna see the solution. I wanna see the technology, whatever it is. Absolutely. Like, you know where they're at, but then make sure you're getting input as you go. I love that. Since cocreation relies so much on that, openness and honesty and kind of collaborative nature, obviously, knowing that's in the title, what is your best advice for building trust early in a sales relationship? Yeah. Well, for me, it's always about the personal. I'm trying to find something about that person that they care about or they wanna talk about, so I do that by reviewing their LinkedIn. And if I can find anything on Facebook or the Internet about them to bring that into the conversation or a common connection we have, but do it in an authentic way. A woman that I work with was saying I she was doing an interview with someone and she said he became so prepared. He knew so much about me, but he didn't just spew it in the, you know, the first minute, but he sort of sprinkled it into the conversation and she was like, I was just mesmerized. Right? It was like, somebody's like talking about you, they love that. So, I always start with the relationship piece. And there are times I've done that, and I I get nothing. So, I particularly, I think of a CRO I was talking to, and he was sitting behind a big desk of mahogany, and I was trying to get something going, and I get nothing. So I quickly moved straight to to the business topic at hand. So, again, just like our last the last question, like, you gotta fill out your your zone and and sort of meet the person where they're at. But that's Good. Well, that gives me some relief that if, you know, you're getting nothing because I think, you know, if anybody's gonna get something, it's Ashley. So alright. Let's hope for the rest of us. I would say one very basic thing that I got told by a sales manager of mine who really appreciated is just basic accountability for building trust. So if you're gonna do something, right, say it, capture it, and then just follow through. Even if it's something super small, like, hey. I wanna draft up my takeaways from this note, from this email or from this meeting and email it to you. And I think doing that consistently over time as a way of building trust. Absolutely. You know, I was I think we talked about this before. I've been doing interview series where I'm interviewing people about what drives them crazy about sellers. And Black Woman said, they tell me they're gonna do something, and then they don't follow through. And I'm like, oh, like, that is such an easy way to ruin trust. So I Yeah. And I feel like the the trust aligns so deeply to, you know, the signs of success as you're going through this process. When you're both starting through this and kind of going through the flow, are there particular signals or behaviors that you look for to say, like, yes. This is working. Or no. This is not working. Or this is not working. I think, you know, for me, one, I'm paying attention to energy. Like, are people really energized and leaning in and excited about what we're talking about? That's a good sign. I'm also looking for are they either, offering it on their own or or as responsive to my suggestion that we include others? Like, I think it'd be great to bring in, you know, the head of sales to talk about this next, and they're like, absolutely. That is, like, for me, having been in sales now for decades, like, if if you're not able to get the next level up involved, like, it it at some point, you need to cut bait. It's not gonna happen if you don't. So finding out whether that's possible or whether they're interested is really a key as to whether this is, you know, there's this is something they're really interested in. Yes. I think energy and inclusion, super important. I think signals, with regards to using, let's say, a digital whiteboard or mural specifically, when folks say, oh, like, this is cool or what platform are you using or, hey. You know, they'll email me and say, hey. Could could I get a link to the board that we used last week? Or I wanna show this to somebody else. That's really nice just to see people having those kind of moments or, getting excited, and even just excited with the content. It's like, you know, we had a meeting recently, Ashley, where we did some of this work, and the person said, oh, thank you. Like, really appreciate you, like, distilling. I had a lot of thoughts kinda blanking around in my brain and, you helped me distill it. So I think those are also just, nice signals of appreciation in the sense that there's buy in into this way of working. I love that. Yeah. I think buy in is so important to this whole process, not only with the stakeholder you're working with, but across broader teams as well and being able to say, like, we work together as, a marketer, but my sales team is also really excited with the outcomes and my product team understands what they're gonna be getting out of this too. And we're, like, holding hands together as a big happy family versus, the internal battles of misalignment. Yeah. Amazing. So we're getting close on time. What I wanted to end with was one, like, immediate takeaway. And my question on that would be, if listeners only implemented one new cocreation tactic this week, which one would you recommend to have the biggest impact? Yeah. I think it goes back to the beginning where we started is this idea of, what did you call it? Visual listening. That even if you're too nervous to actually show the person what you're doing right off the bat, get on a board and start take you know, practicing, capturing what people are saying so that after the fact, you can show it to them and you've cleaned it up. I think that is, like, a just like a step into using this and building your muscle around it. And then the fact that you can show it to them afterwards in this cool dynamic way is just, like, gives you cred right off the bat. Yep. I would plus one that. I think one really fun way to practice that as well is just with a non work related project. Right? If you're redesigning your basement, and making it better, right, you could pull up one of these and use it as a, you know, a mood board for, you know, whether it's gonna be, you know, the man cave or, you know, the salon or whatever it is that you're building down there. Bring it to life, and you can use that as a way to structure some difficult negotiations with your partner, or your kids or whoever. Again, I think it's a way to to lean in and maybe get some practice, before you do it in a higher stakes situation. Amazing. Thank you. Ashley Neville, thank you so much for joining me, having this conversation today. I know that I'm walking away with tons of new ideas on how marketing can better support the collaborative selling cycle, and I hope that all of our listeners are leaving with some good ideas for putting cocreation into their own conversations and actions. So, with that, I hope this is the start of many conversations on this because I know I have tons more questions. But, yeah, looking forward to continuing them on. Alright. Thank you. Awesome. Thanks. Sorry. See you later. Thanks. Bye.